The Dicenomicon and White Wolf games

Simulated dice for role playing games
gandreas
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The Dicenomicon and White Wolf games

Post by gandreas » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:52 am

(Broken off into a separate thread to make things a bit more manageable)

So I've been giving this some thought and I think I have a solution to handling all the various Storyteller based variants.

Step 1 - Add new "filtered" dice. They look just like d10s, but are "dX#" (where # is the target number). They automatically convert the d10 result into -1,0,+1 depending on if it is a 1, less than the target number, or greater than or equal to it. (For "double ten" there will also be "dXX#" where ten becomes +2). By default, they will just add this value together, so "6dX7" is equivalent to the current "6d10≥7".

Step 2 - Add new modifiers. For example "vs #" would be an Exalted style "add all the +, subtract the difficulty number, and if zero or less and no +, subtract the -". So "6dX7vs3" would be a Exalted dice pool of 6, target 7, vs difficulty 3 (and 6d6vs3 wouldn't be very useful, though 6dFvs3 might be interesting).

Now the problem is that there are a number of different variation, depending on which White Wolf game and what edition (as well as any "house rules"). So if there are any specific mechanics that we need, please post a follow-up with details...

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Post by gandreas » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:30 pm

The "open" dice rolls ("rolling a 10 lets you roll an additional die") are also a problem (for several reasons) but I'm beating them into shape.

The question is how to best present the syntax:

3d+10

vs

3o10

In the former, things that modify how the dice are rolled are after an omnipresent "d", while in the latter, "d" is replaced as needed. I'm leaning toward the former (especially since I'm contemplating adding a "z" roll which start at 0, so z6 goes from 0-5 - granted, you can simulate that with subtracting appropriate constants, but it seems useful in a few cases).

The "+" also would allow open ended "low" rolls ("-"), and open ended high/low rolls (with either "+-" or "xB1")

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Post by gandreas » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:46 am

I think I finally got them all working. There will be a change in "≥" to _not_ do the "1 subtracts", since that will be part of an explicit "dX" type. So if we have a target number of 7, die pool size of 9 and difficulty of 5 we can get:

9d10≥7 = No "1 subtracts" (and you'd just see if the result is 5 or more)
9d+10≥7 = No "1 subtracts", but open ended (10 = +1, roll again)
9dX7 = 1 subtracts
9d+X7 = 1 subtracts, 10 = +1 and roll again
9dXX7 = 1 subtracts, 10 = +2
9dX7vs5 = Exalted (1's only subtract if fewer than 5 dice ≥ 7)
9dXX7vs5 = Exalted, 10 = +2
9d+X7vs5 = Exalted, 10 = +1 and roll again

The open-ended dice also work for things like 7th Sea (which refer to them as "exploding dice"), so 7k5 would be "7d+10H5" (I think - I'm going to have to do some research to make sure).

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Post by raynerape » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:39 am

As a player soon to join an Exalted game, I am really happy with these new dice formulas. When is the next version with those dice formulas coming out?

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Post by gandreas » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:29 am

I'm hoping to have a feature freeze by the end of the week, fix bugs, and then post it (and, of course, sit back and wait up to a week before it shows up).

It's definitely coming along - I should have Rolemaster support today. "Open ended dice" are still a problem because they aren't always consistent - in some cases, you reroll and add to the original, in others you effective roll a new die. The different may seem subtle, but consider what it means to roll 3 open ended d10s and take the 2 highest. You roll "10, 9, 5". So you can reroll the 10, and you get another "10". And again, you end up with "2". So do you take the two highest of "10, 10, 2, 9, 5" (giving you "10,10") or the two highest "10+10+2,9,5" ("22,9").

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Post by Stef » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:37 am

The open ended or 'exploding' dice would be superb! As a Legend of the Five Rings (l5r) player they're really important just like in 7th Sea (another AEG product).

As for the mechanics, it's pretty simple in that any 10 on (virtually) and dice gives you another dice to roll. If that comes up a 10, you get another one and so on but these additional dice are always counted on top of the total already made. So, if you're rolling 6k4 (rolling 6, keeping 4) and you get:
10,8,8,5,4,1 that would total 31 with the bold numbers being counted. However, the 10 would give an extra dice to add to that total.

It's possible to frig things by doing a normal formula roll and then rolling as many extra d10s as you got 10s but it's not very elegant and you have to do arithmetic at the end which is bad! ;-)

Anything you can do to accommodate us Roll & Keep (L5r, 7th Sea etc) players would be much appreciated and certainly garner more sales. once it's done and working, I'll definitely be all over the AEG forums shouting about Dicenomicon! :-)

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Post by gandreas » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:07 am

1.1 was posted to the AppStore for approval yesterday, and should show up later next week (based on past experience - I've seen updates go out as fast as 4 days, or up to 8 days).

There are actually three forms of open ended dice that can be used (and applied to any dice size):

Open High - roll again, adding that result ("d+10")
Open Low - roll again, subtracting that result ("d-10")
Open High/Low - as above, but both ("d널")
Reroll Another - roll again, but treat that result as another die ("d*10") - important for target based rolls - if you have a target of 7 and roll a ten, adding the next roll to 10 doesn't do you any good, unless of course you're playing Shadowrun which may have target numbers > 10

So for 7th Sea, "roll 7 keep 5" would be "d+10H5". This also allows for Feng Shui style rolls as well "Gd+6 - Rd+6" (where "G" and "R" just set the colors to make it more obvious which die is which). Rolemaster's open rolls are "dxB1%".

It's done and working - just awaiting approval...

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Post by Stef » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:10 am

Ooh, now I'm getting excited. That is going to kick so much ass! Will 1.1 allow you to name your predefined rolls by the way? No biggie if not but a very nice to have.

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Post by gandreas » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:18 am

Yup...

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Post by inariel » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:27 am

I have just downloaded the 1.1 version of dicenomicon and I have a feature request with respect to the White Wolf games. I really love the "Reroll Another" function, very usefull in this kind of games. However I have to ask if it is possible to extend this function to reroll also 9 or 8 in a d10 not only highest value. This can be very useful because in white wolf games some weapons have the property "reroll 9" and combined with other properties it is possible also to "reroll 8".

Finally an OT but in 1.1 I do not see the beautiful background showed in your website or in iTunes. I can chose only texture.

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Post by gandreas » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:30 am

Under 1.2, it will be possible to add your own "macro die" that can do a "reroll another" on any numbers that you want.

As for the missing textures, I've uploaded a 1.1.1 to include them (an error in the build system prevented them from being properly added - arg!!!!)

inariel
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Post by inariel » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:42 am

gandreas wrote:Under 1.2, it will be possible to add your own "macro die" that can do a "reroll another" on any numbers that you want.
GREAT! This is a notice! Thank you very much :D

gandreas wrote: As for the missing textures, I've uploaded a 1.1.1 to include them (an error in the build system prevented them from being properly added - arg!!!!)


:lol: It is not a problem. I will wait the 1.1.1 for the missing textures :mrgreen:

In any case, your application is really a great piece of code. :wink:

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Post by gandreas » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:58 am

It is not a problem. I will wait the 1.1.1 for the missing textures
It actually is a problem as far as I'm concerned - annoying when the tools you use don't always work right (and worse, there's no good way to make sure that what you build for release actually works as you expect, because you can't actually run the "distribution" version due to the screwy way that iPhone development works).

[/quote]

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Post by Stef » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:23 pm

Got v1.1 today and I'm very, very impressed. It works a dream! I even tweaked the physics settings and got a roll i was really happy with :-)

The exploding dice feature rocks by the way, thank! As per an earlier comment, being able to select dice that explode on numbers other than 10 would be handy (l5r has certain techniques and such like that allow 9s and even 8s to explode but it's rare enough for it not to be a big issue).

Only thing I'd say is that it wasn't immediately obvious how to make the dice explode; you gave the formula in the help but it took me a while to work out that the Op+ button was what I needed to press to get the formula I wanted. I got there in the end though.

Anyway, I'm off to go and write you a review :-)

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Post by gandreas » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:35 pm

Good to hear - there's a fine balance between having "every key you ever want all over the place" and "use modifier key to get to the less commonly used ones" (and decide which are common and which aren't).

Obviously I've still got a little space left on the keyboard - I may rearrange them a bit in the next version ("lowest N" is probably less often used than open ended rolls, so it might get bumped to the alternate of "highest N").

I'm still disappointed that the background textures didn't get built correctly though...

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